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re the flop set of 8s on the AhKs8s flop. I was about to argue that MP isn’t as likely to have a spade draw following his actions on the flop but as I started to type it in I re-evaluated that he could have AsXs with X being at least Jack or Queen if he has any respect for a standard raise from UTG. Without that Ace for TP and the nut flush draw I don’t see how a lesser flush draw could make the flat call after hero re-r UTG’s 250 to 1200 – If MP is anyway competent he has to know (on the flop) that he’s most likely way behind a better Ace, two pair or a set so is putting his tournament life on the line for a 2:1 draw. While there are plenty of guys out there that will do just that it has been my experience that they very often do it aggressively with a push in an effort to force maximum fold-equity on a semi-bluff.
This situation was somewhat more complicated in that MP was sandwitched between the UTG pre-flop/flop raiser and the (post-flop) re-raiser on the button and what with smooth calling the UTG raise of 250 MP was getting proper odds (2.2:1) to draw to a nut flush. Hero’s re-raise was too small to give the draw improper odds to continue and so was a mistake if it was intended to take down the pot down on the flop – so why not just go all-in? – but if intended to build a big pot then Hero was taking a calculated risk but giving sufficent odds for a worse hand to continue and a 33% chance of improving to a better hand.
In any case I didn’t like MP’s flat call to the 1200 re-raise as it pretty much committed him to the pot and he should have just pushed or folded a flush draw which is why I at first didn’t think he had one. But b/c he wanted to see the river he put in a DEFENSIVE bet – looks soooo much like a SUCKER bet with his 2 top pair! My re-raise all-in obviously committed me to the pot but with 10 outs if I misjudged the made flush and pretty much insured MP would call with 2 pair or AsXo since he WAS pot committed with his 500 bet.
A lot would depend on what hero knew about MP’s style and aggression – or lack or it – but after the flat call to hero’s re-raise I don’t see where MP wasn’t going to dbl-up or bust and hero was caught in the same boat.
I’ve read your book for the 1st time and have it selected for re-read in the near future – a compliment to be sure as a lot of books I get are one-timers and are either trashed or passed on to my enemies! While I would rate it 7/10 for Advanced players I did find some problems – at least for my needs and wants. Note I think this is a book for Advanced players and it should be marketed as such. Beginners simply don’t have enough experience for fully digest several of the strategies and concepts presented in this book.
First and formost however, I bought the book as I was lead to believe it was aimed at NLHE cash games so found that the over-welming tournament contend to be of limited use. There aren’t a lot of books out there for cash games – Harrington has 2 very excellent ones – especially for No Limit and too damn many for Limit! I found Limit HE to be too frustrating at the lower limits at least as too many moderate hands lost too many big pots and big hand couldn’t get paid enough for all the losses to suckouts – so I switched to No Limit a few years ago.
2nd – as a tournament strategy guide I think it was too limited unless you qualified it as “advance plays for advanced players”! But since I wasn’t looking for tournament advice anyway, I simply took the content to validate my own concepts, strategies and tactics.
3rdly – Thankfully there is more than one correct way to play any given hand – otherwise where would deception play a role? – and while I understood and appreciated several of your points I found some of your examples to be poor ones to drive the point home – “PICK ON THE MEDIUM STACKS, NOT THE (CRITICALLY) SHORT STACK” was one of several I took issue with (like disagreed completely with the example). Othertimes I thought an advance player should have read the situation better than the example did!
Now back to the first point. I bought the book given the impression it was aimed NLHE CASH games! I am still looking out for these type of books especially for the low and moderate levels (anyone playing the higher levels should already be proficent enough to not need much futher education or be rich enough to learn the old fashion way). Again I’m talking about an Advance level of player who has sufficent real-time experiance so as to not clutter such a book with beginner content and elimentry knowledge such as hand selection, position and player styles that are amply covered by numerous other publication already. I talking about a NLHE cash game book for both casinos and on-line play at the $50 to $5000 buy-in level (assuming 100 BB = the max buy-in). Books like “Harrington On Cash Games” which I found to be priceless but I still want other authors to present their concepts and strategies to more fully develope my own game.
For example I was playing a live $1-2 NLHE game at my local casino when an Early Position player came in for $15 (7.5 x bb is pretty standard at these games)when the player to my left on the Button asked how much the EP had back. The EP exposed his stack and after counting it declared $75 to which the Button sighned “Not enough” then exposed his cards to me before mucking AKo. I was shocked and offered to buy the hand – too late and not allowed anyway – but it taught me a huge lesson in cash game play that my tournamnet mentality simply couldn’t conceive (at the time). AKo might very well have been the best hand but with the EP remaining stack at only 5:1 to the initial pre-flop raise, it wasn’t sufficent odds for the Button to risk calling. In tournamnet play that would have been an auto-call or even an re-raise all-in depending on what level of the tourney it developed but at a $1-2 cash game the EP had priced out worse hands (from better players since worse players were regularily calling these huge pf raises with any two of a suit and any Ace-x or 2 broadways)along with the better ones. I never forgot that hand and when I got Harrinton On Cash Games the point was really driven home for drawing hands and the stacks behind needed to justify chasing. To your credit you make the same point in your book. It also taught me to play against the flow in cash games – extrapulated from the Button player and Harrington’s book – that it is a huge mistake to price out drawing hands- and therefore worse hands most usually – preflop. So while many at the table were pf raising anywhere from $12-24 I was pf raising from $7-8 if 1st in and only adding $2 per limper ahead of me. It accomplished a couple of things; 1st worse hands would still play the “rock” b/c the price was cheap compared to the norm while the better players usually got out of the way and 2nd – the weaker players gave me no credit/respect for a strong hand since I came in so low to the standard pfr. It also helped me disguise my occational 78s pfr. After a while you would also see other players coming in for $7-8 and $15 was no longer the norm – You gotta love that since now small pairs and suited connectors become affordable to play!
Anyway, if you have plans for another book in the future I would suggest you give serious thought to a NLHE cash game strategy for Advanced players theme. Harrington would appreciate the competition! :>)
Glad you enjoyed the book, Aces Rule! As to the quiz question, the middle position player in this real-life hand did have AJ of spades. Fortunately, I did re-suck out on him on the river. With a pair and the nut flush draw, I think Villain played the hand conservatively and correctly, but probably should have bet a bit more on the turn. But it was a tough hand to play all around. There is such a thing as a no-win scenario in hold em.
As to cash game play, although most of the examples in Poker Tips that Pay were drawn from tournaments, much of the advice remains useful for cash game play. With tournament dynamics removed, cash game play is all about skill in reading opponents, conservative play, exploiting even marginal +eV situations, and (the ultimate secret) maneuvering to stack weak opponents with the right hand at the right time.
As to the examples, I think the book makes it clear that Hero isn’t always perfect. If Hero always made the ideal play, the reader wouldn’t see the showdown in a lot of hands where Hero misreads the situation. These are all real hands, but Hero isn’t always myself in these examples (and even when it is, Lord knows I’m not a perfect player!). Hero’s mistakes are discussed and analyzed in detail. My hope is that players that have routinely made similar mistakes in the course of their poker education can profit even by poor examples, when mistakes are dissected and analyzed.
#1 by Aces Rule on November 2nd, 2009
Quote
re the flop set of 8s on the AhKs8s flop. I was about to argue that MP isn’t as likely to have a spade draw following his actions on the flop but as I started to type it in I re-evaluated that he could have AsXs with X being at least Jack or Queen if he has any respect for a standard raise from UTG. Without that Ace for TP and the nut flush draw I don’t see how a lesser flush draw could make the flat call after hero re-r UTG’s 250 to 1200 – If MP is anyway competent he has to know (on the flop) that he’s most likely way behind a better Ace, two pair or a set so is putting his tournament life on the line for a 2:1 draw. While there are plenty of guys out there that will do just that it has been my experience that they very often do it aggressively with a push in an effort to force maximum fold-equity on a semi-bluff.
This situation was somewhat more complicated in that MP was sandwitched between the UTG pre-flop/flop raiser and the (post-flop) re-raiser on the button and what with smooth calling the UTG raise of 250 MP was getting proper odds (2.2:1) to draw to a nut flush. Hero’s re-raise was too small to give the draw improper odds to continue and so was a mistake if it was intended to take down the pot down on the flop – so why not just go all-in? – but if intended to build a big pot then Hero was taking a calculated risk but giving sufficent odds for a worse hand to continue and a 33% chance of improving to a better hand.
In any case I didn’t like MP’s flat call to the 1200 re-raise as it pretty much committed him to the pot and he should have just pushed or folded a flush draw which is why I at first didn’t think he had one. But b/c he wanted to see the river he put in a DEFENSIVE bet – looks soooo much like a SUCKER bet with his 2 top pair! My re-raise all-in obviously committed me to the pot but with 10 outs if I misjudged the made flush and pretty much insured MP would call with 2 pair or AsXo since he WAS pot committed with his 500 bet.
A lot would depend on what hero knew about MP’s style and aggression – or lack or it – but after the flat call to hero’s re-raise I don’t see where MP wasn’t going to dbl-up or bust and hero was caught in the same boat.
#2 by Aces Rule on November 2nd, 2009
Quote
I’ve read your book for the 1st time and have it selected for re-read in the near future – a compliment to be sure as a lot of books I get are one-timers and are either trashed or passed on to my enemies! While I would rate it 7/10 for Advanced players I did find some problems – at least for my needs and wants. Note I think this is a book for Advanced players and it should be marketed as such. Beginners simply don’t have enough experience for fully digest several of the strategies and concepts presented in this book.
First and formost however, I bought the book as I was lead to believe it was aimed at NLHE cash games so found that the over-welming tournament contend to be of limited use. There aren’t a lot of books out there for cash games – Harrington has 2 very excellent ones – especially for No Limit and too damn many for Limit! I found Limit HE to be too frustrating at the lower limits at least as too many moderate hands lost too many big pots and big hand couldn’t get paid enough for all the losses to suckouts – so I switched to No Limit a few years ago.
2nd – as a tournament strategy guide I think it was too limited unless you qualified it as “advance plays for advanced players”! But since I wasn’t looking for tournament advice anyway, I simply took the content to validate my own concepts, strategies and tactics.
3rdly – Thankfully there is more than one correct way to play any given hand – otherwise where would deception play a role? – and while I understood and appreciated several of your points I found some of your examples to be poor ones to drive the point home – “PICK ON THE MEDIUM STACKS, NOT THE (CRITICALLY) SHORT STACK” was one of several I took issue with (like disagreed completely with the example). Othertimes I thought an advance player should have read the situation better than the example did!
Now back to the first point. I bought the book given the impression it was aimed NLHE CASH games! I am still looking out for these type of books especially for the low and moderate levels (anyone playing the higher levels should already be proficent enough to not need much futher education or be rich enough to learn the old fashion way). Again I’m talking about an Advance level of player who has sufficent real-time experiance so as to not clutter such a book with beginner content and elimentry knowledge such as hand selection, position and player styles that are amply covered by numerous other publication already. I talking about a NLHE cash game book for both casinos and on-line play at the $50 to $5000 buy-in level (assuming 100 BB = the max buy-in). Books like “Harrington On Cash Games” which I found to be priceless but I still want other authors to present their concepts and strategies to more fully develope my own game.
For example I was playing a live $1-2 NLHE game at my local casino when an Early Position player came in for $15 (7.5 x bb is pretty standard at these games)when the player to my left on the Button asked how much the EP had back. The EP exposed his stack and after counting it declared $75 to which the Button sighned “Not enough” then exposed his cards to me before mucking AKo. I was shocked and offered to buy the hand – too late and not allowed anyway – but it taught me a huge lesson in cash game play that my tournamnet mentality simply couldn’t conceive (at the time). AKo might very well have been the best hand but with the EP remaining stack at only 5:1 to the initial pre-flop raise, it wasn’t sufficent odds for the Button to risk calling. In tournamnet play that would have been an auto-call or even an re-raise all-in depending on what level of the tourney it developed but at a $1-2 cash game the EP had priced out worse hands (from better players since worse players were regularily calling these huge pf raises with any two of a suit and any Ace-x or 2 broadways)along with the better ones. I never forgot that hand and when I got Harrinton On Cash Games the point was really driven home for drawing hands and the stacks behind needed to justify chasing. To your credit you make the same point in your book. It also taught me to play against the flow in cash games – extrapulated from the Button player and Harrington’s book – that it is a huge mistake to price out drawing hands- and therefore worse hands most usually – preflop. So while many at the table were pf raising anywhere from $12-24 I was pf raising from $7-8 if 1st in and only adding $2 per limper ahead of me. It accomplished a couple of things; 1st worse hands would still play the “rock” b/c the price was cheap compared to the norm while the better players usually got out of the way and 2nd – the weaker players gave me no credit/respect for a strong hand since I came in so low to the standard pfr. It also helped me disguise my occational 78s pfr. After a while you would also see other players coming in for $7-8 and $15 was no longer the norm – You gotta love that since now small pairs and suited connectors become affordable to play!
Anyway, if you have plans for another book in the future I would suggest you give serious thought to a NLHE cash game strategy for Advanced players theme. Harrington would appreciate the competition! :>)
#3 by Jonathan Gelling on November 3rd, 2009
Quote
Glad you enjoyed the book, Aces Rule! As to the quiz question, the middle position player in this real-life hand did have AJ of spades. Fortunately, I did re-suck out on him on the river. With a pair and the nut flush draw, I think Villain played the hand conservatively and correctly, but probably should have bet a bit more on the turn. But it was a tough hand to play all around. There is such a thing as a no-win scenario in hold em.
As to cash game play, although most of the examples in Poker Tips that Pay were drawn from tournaments, much of the advice remains useful for cash game play. With tournament dynamics removed, cash game play is all about skill in reading opponents, conservative play, exploiting even marginal +eV situations, and (the ultimate secret) maneuvering to stack weak opponents with the right hand at the right time.
As to the examples, I think the book makes it clear that Hero isn’t always perfect. If Hero always made the ideal play, the reader wouldn’t see the showdown in a lot of hands where Hero misreads the situation. These are all real hands, but Hero isn’t always myself in these examples (and even when it is, Lord knows I’m not a perfect player!). Hero’s mistakes are discussed and analyzed in detail. My hope is that players that have routinely made similar mistakes in the course of their poker education can profit even by poor examples, when mistakes are dissected and analyzed.
#4 by Aces Rule on November 3rd, 2009
Quote
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